The Athenians had no direct taxes on their own citizens (except for the eisphora collected during the war) but had a monthly poll tax on all of the foreigners that did not have both an Athenian father and mother (metoikion). They were among the very few people in history that avoided two temptations. One was keeping war tax permanently by finding an ad hoc reason to do so (the tax was rescinded immediately after the war). There was no talk about post-war reconstruction, buiding The Great Society, social justice, etc. The second temptation was raising the poll tax on the foreigners. Those not paying were not exactly welcome, but those paying their fixed amount were staying as long as they wanted and working however they wanted.
And you know what: theirs was the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world, and there was no lack of foreigners that wanted to live in Athens.
Pity that progress makes such sensible arrangments no longer tenable…
shkrobius 
Wait, what happened to the Delian League and the Black Sea grain tribute that sustained Athens? It was exactly this that made the naval war with the Spartans so inevitable and important and Aegospotami so fatal. Also note that while the Spartans could care less how their allies governed themselves, the Athenians imposed democracy on their client city-states, invariably plunging them into paroxysms of civil war and atrocities.
What that has to do with their approach to immigration?
Nothing. It has to do with their inability to resist the first temptation.
I see. At least, they’ve tried.
Wait, what happened to the Delian League and the Black Sea grain tribute that sustained Athens? It was exactly this that made the naval war with the Spartans so inevitable and important and Aegospotami so fatal. Also note that while the Spartans could care less how their allies governed themselves, the Athenians imposed democracy on their client city-states, invariably plunging them into paroxysms of civil war and atrocities.
What that has to do with their approach to immigration?
Nothing. It has to do with their inability to resist the first temptation.
I see. At least, they’ve tried.
Wait, what happened to the Delian League and the Black Sea grain tribute that sustained Athens? It was exactly this that made the naval war with the Spartans so inevitable and important and Aegospotami so fatal. Also note that while the Spartans could care less how their allies governed themselves, the Athenians imposed democracy on their client city-states, invariably plunging them into paroxysms of civil war and atrocities.
What that has to do with their approach to immigration?
Nothing. It has to do with their inability to resist the first temptation.
I see. At least, they’ve tried.
Wait, what happened to the Delian League and the Black Sea grain tribute that sustained Athens? It was exactly this that made the naval war with the Spartans so inevitable and important and Aegospotami so fatal. Also note that while the Spartans could care less how their allies governed themselves, the Athenians imposed democracy on their client city-states, invariably plunging them into paroxysms of civil war and atrocities.
What that has to do with their approach to immigration?
Nothing. It has to do with their inability to resist the first temptation.
I see. At least, they’ve tried.
Wait, what happened to the Delian League and the Black Sea grain tribute that sustained Athens? It was exactly this that made the naval war with the Spartans so inevitable and important and Aegospotami so fatal. Also note that while the Spartans could care less how their allies governed themselves, the Athenians imposed democracy on their client city-states, invariably plunging them into paroxysms of civil war and atrocities.
What that has to do with their approach to immigration?
Nothing. It has to do with their inability to resist the first temptation.
I see. At least, they’ve tried.
What did they do to those foreigners who did not work and did not pay taxes? And what was the procedure for a foreigner to obtain the Athenian citizenship?
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
What did they do to those foreigners who did not work and did not pay taxes? And what was the procedure for a foreigner to obtain the Athenian citizenship?
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
What did they do to those foreigners who did not work and did not pay taxes? And what was the procedure for a foreigner to obtain the Athenian citizenship?
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
What did they do to those foreigners who did not work and did not pay taxes? And what was the procedure for a foreigner to obtain the Athenian citizenship?
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
What did they do to those foreigners who did not work and did not pay taxes? And what was the procedure for a foreigner to obtain the Athenian citizenship?
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
Banishment; for substantial debts to the assembly – heavy penalties including the enslavement. Paying taxes was only part of the deal, the foreigners also had to fight wars for the Athenians, albeit in their own unit. If they fought well and paid taxes, there was a way to grant them citizenship but it was not a routine matter. That required the assembly with a special vote by a secret ballot and a quorum of a few thousands; the majority was required. They had to prove their manly virtue to the assembly. Citizenship by a decree still was not the same as that by descent. They and their children were excluded from the highest posts (arkhons, priests).
This was only done for exception service to the city, to a few hundred of individuals (mainly, foreign rulers and heroes). The Samians were given citizenship en masse for their loyalty (at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians did not have enough sailors for their ships); perhaps there were other cases.
There were no anti-immigrant sentiments whatsoever; the foreigners were loved very dearly indeed (at least, the solvent ones). Immigrants paying taxes for citizens rather than the other way around does absolute wonders for promoting the kindest feelings towards strange men…
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
мне нравится.
остроумно там было, спасибо.
вариант внедрения тут – все мы, naturalized citizens, платим налог за коренных американцев. а люди на гринкарте платят больше согласно статусу. студенты скажем освобождены от налогов. а самый большой налог на работающих по визе. а коренные американцы освобождены.
да – родившиеся здесь дети натурализованных или других второго сорта и третьего граждан “облагаемых” – автоматически облагаются всю жизнь согласно статусу родителей.
а переход из низшего статуса в высший решает INS на основании свидетельств от служителя культа, соседей, работодателя, и конечно аффидавит врача о здоровье и анализ мочи на недопустимые вещества тоже пойдет в дело.
а что? интересный был бы мир. небось и закон такой прошел бы на-ура. иммигранты-то не голосуют.
Re: мне нравится.
I suspect our state is too tax-hungry for such an arrangemet. BTW, I do not think any other polity tried it the Athenian way in 2500 years. You need superhuman restraint to avoid the two temptations; even the Athenians have failed eventually.
I sympathize with avoiding these temptations but I am afraid Athens is not the best model to emulate. For how long did they avoid these temptations and kept being “the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world”? Perhaps part of the meaning of “dynamic” here was “ephemeral”…
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.
I sympathize with avoiding these temptations but I am afraid Athens is not the best model to emulate. For how long did they avoid these temptations and kept being “the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world”? Perhaps part of the meaning of “dynamic” here was “ephemeral”…
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.
I sympathize with avoiding these temptations but I am afraid Athens is not the best model to emulate. For how long did they avoid these temptations and kept being “the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world”? Perhaps part of the meaning of “dynamic” here was “ephemeral”…
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.
I sympathize with avoiding these temptations but I am afraid Athens is not the best model to emulate. For how long did they avoid these temptations and kept being “the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world”? Perhaps part of the meaning of “dynamic” here was “ephemeral”…
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.
I sympathize with avoiding these temptations but I am afraid Athens is not the best model to emulate. For how long did they avoid these temptations and kept being “the greatest, the most dynamic and the most cosmopolitan society of the ancient world”? Perhaps part of the meaning of “dynamic” here was “ephemeral”…
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.
For about as long as they avoided these temptations (there were a couple of lapses). The hell broke loose under the foreign rulers.
BTW, here is a nice paper explaining it all http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2006/Kapparis2.pdf
By dynamic I meant the situation when a non-Grek slave brought into Athens could become its full citizen. Social mobility.
I’d give it another try. Maybe it’s not the perfect model, but it gave impressive results.
Thank you for the paper.
The difficulty is that you presumably have had a view about these temptations prior to reading about the Athenian policies. I mean, this example in your eyes probably supports nicely your previously held convictions.
It is agreeable, but not helpful. Many people have a different view. To “give it another try” many of them should be convinced. Practical evidence is in general the best way to convince other people to change their view. It is either a misery to be examined, to find mistakes to be avoided. Or it is a success, to emulate.
For misery the current Athenian story makes the best argument. Pity that it seems it is noticed more in Europe than in America. But for success the ancient Athenian story is not convincing. They were too different from us, one will always find competing reasons for their success.
We have long ceased to study and emulate the classical ways. And with good reason – we now have better examples of our own. Banal it may be, but the example of your own country springs to mind.